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| [ti]SW[/ti]Building a Weapon Manufacturing Capacity | |
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| Topic Started: 20th November 2013 - 09:51 PM (82,855 Views) | |
| lashgare | 20th November 2013 - 09:51 PM Post #1 |
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Kurds and Kurdistan should aim to build military industries and accumulate stockpiles of weapons. Arms is one problem if we ever come to a war situation. We have a landlocked country. We have no ports from where bring in weapons, and if we ever go to war and declare ourselves independent, we will be at serious disadvantage, without neccesary preparations. Iran, Iraq, Turkey will mostly likely cut off supply routes aswell as rivers supplying kurdistan with fresh water, this will be an obvious strategic action. This will result in both a lack of arms material, and fresh-water and imported goods. And without preparations we will be in the same situation as Sarajevo in balkan wars. Cut off, underequipped and with a serious supply deficit. However our situation will be way worse... considering that Bosniaks were facing Serbia and Serbian-bosniak paramilitary, with smaller armies and smaller budgets. Not two of the most powerful countries in the area. This is why it's important that kurdistan creates an advanced manufacturing and procurement capacity in kurdistan itself, meanwhile we also foster good relations with conflict-neutral countries like Armenia, Georgia, Israel, who can serve as transit countries for arms and supplies. This will probably be the biggest logistic problem we face. This neccesitates kurdistan investing in lobbies and the arms industry around the world. This will be crucial in a long-term strategy to secure kurdistan as access to a full military arsenal and good logistical/procurement infrastructure is essential to winning warfare against larger and militarily advanced enemies. Regardless of whether the war takes on assymetrical or conventional form. With a up to date arsenal we can exploit our strategic location to its maximal potential. Imagine a guerilla force consisting of professional trained fighters, equipped to be able to deterr and respond to any form of attacks, whether aerial, land-based. Trained and equipped, to be able to fight in any terrain. It will be much more effective than any other guerilla force. With a good arsenal, it will be have a much wider operational capacity than traditional guerillas, whose operations were limited by their arsenal. Think of f.ex the Afghan mujahideen, who were at a serious disadvantage when facing the Soviets forces in the 80s once they fielded aerial forces. The guerilla brigades suffered from limitations in the strategies and operations they could apply to the field, which can be attributed to their limited arsenal. Most of this trouble was attributed to soviets fielding gunships like hind 24. Whose design made it difficult for afghan fighters limited arsenal to counter, since the exterior of the helicopter's design included explosion reinforced frames, making Rpg 7s and anti-air battteries used by the Mujahideen null. The Afghans were subject to serious casualities, until they received American military aid, that was decisive in rendering Soviet gunships ineffective. The enemy we face today, is of course more advanced technologically and the battles that will ontake will not be in for the enemy distant locations, but will ontake right on our enemies front-door. Lessons learned from chechen guerilla in the 90s, is that regardless of enviroment(chechens were fighting in one of the most exposed fields, namely urban setting) superior planning and organization can make the battle difficult for enemies. In addition to a full arsenal that makes countering enemies easy, regardless of whether their strategy revolves around counter-insurgency or aerial bombardment. A military industry allows us to manufacture equipment and readjust our strategies according to our enemies plans. This is why military manufacturing and logistics will become essential in future military conflicts that kurdistan might be involved in. |
 
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| Azamat | 21st November 2013 - 03:23 AM Post #2 |
 
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It takes decades to develop a fully fledged arms industry. The KRG could have initiated the overall preparation for the development of industries since 2003(basically through solving each obstacle step by step, no matter how dirt poor we would have been at the starting point) but it hasn't displayed any interest in doing so. Their policy appears to vest confidence in relying on the services of foreign companies for virtually everything. If the KRG makes a really hard effort and comprehensively inventorizes and allocates the human resources that are available it could perhaps establish a small-arms and basic ammunition industry in the near future. Note that merely this already necessitates a whole line of supplementary industries, mostly metallurgical. Anything of a heavier magnitude than that will probably be unachievable in time before the next major conflict that may have to be fought. I'm expecting AlanJ to find this post provocative and with his merit as an engineering student may respond by defending the overreliance on foreign companies given the circumstances of the KRG's human and technical resources. He may do that if he so wishes, I'm very well-prepared for a debate.
Edited by Azamat, 21st November 2013 - 03:48 AM.
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 03:48 AM Post #3 |
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Not neccesarily true.... if the research facilities are in place, and enough money is invested, kurdistan could probably build under license their own helicopters and tanks(even though those aren't the strategically most important) within a few years. The most important sector of kurdish military is training(training verstaility of troops who can operate well), and anti-air/anti-tank equipment, jamming/disruption and cloaking and deception. If we can destroy turkish helicopters and intercept turkish missles and artillery, and aircraft, and drones, we'll have won half the war. Armored vehicles are pretty ineffective in mountain warfare. They're the first pieces of equipment destroyed in ambushes. Most modern MBTs can be defeated with tandem charges. F.ex the israeli merkava was destroyed with RPG 29's by hezbollah during the Israeli incursion into lebanon 2006. While counter-insurgency operations and infantry are only as good as commanders strategies and as a whole the support they get from the local population.
Edited by lashgare, 21st November 2013 - 04:25 AM.
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| FulcrumKAF | 21st November 2013 - 05:23 AM Post #4 |
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I am completely for a independent arms industry. KRG should focus on building mines and industry to be able to produce most of the materials needed locally. If we manage to build a industry capable of arms manufacturing, it would most likely start with licences for small arms from other companies. From there the industry will grow (licenses for armored jeeps and such levels might come soon after, and then more advanced/heavy weapons), and with time KRG will be able to produce its own weapons altogether. However, the company have to be named as a "private" company not under governmental (KRG) control. KRG is, due to international law, not allowed to buy or produce any military equipment other than interior/Police level equipment. The company can (and should) be under KRG influence, but officially it has to remain as a "private" company. That way we will be able to bypass the international law forbidding KRG from doing so, and thus getting licences. |
| The army is the true nobility of a nation Never plan on the thoughts of others, but on their capabilities One indivisible and sovereign Kurdish nation for all Kurds! Chase all al nusra and Daash terrorists out of Kurdistan!! Her biji YPG u Peshmerga! |
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| Azamat | 21st November 2013 - 05:24 AM Post #5 |
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This is eerily reminiscent of Fascist economic policies. The public sector is way more suited to this kind of thing because the companies won't have to cope with the trappings of market forces, the need for capital to accumulate, etc. I'm assuming that the law prohibiting KRG from producing weapons would not apply anymore once it secedes from Iraq and is recognized as an independent state?
Edited by Azamat, 21st November 2013 - 05:28 AM.
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| FulcrumKAF | 21st November 2013 - 05:38 AM Post #6 |
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True, but the sad fact is if we want to produce arms as fast as possible legally, it will be trough licences from already established companies. And to be able to do this, we have to have this company as "private" (at least officially. KRG could indirectly support it and be in complete control of it unofficially). Yes, as soon as KRG becomes an independent country, it is free to build its own industry/buy any weapons. When that happens, we could officially nationalize this company and put it under state control. This company im talking about is only a possible alternative if KRG plans on remaining part of Iraq for a long period of time. |
| The army is the true nobility of a nation Never plan on the thoughts of others, but on their capabilities One indivisible and sovereign Kurdish nation for all Kurds! Chase all al nusra and Daash terrorists out of Kurdistan!! Her biji YPG u Peshmerga! |
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| chivaz serko | 21st November 2013 - 08:37 AM Post #7 |
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krg doenst need that they need strong allies that oppose the US such as china, north korea, Russia, eastern European nations, cuba, if only gaddafi was still around for a few years more barzani should of asked for heavy weapons from him when he had the chance without a doubt gaddafi would of offered help like he did in the past |
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 08:56 AM Post #8 |
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No.. that doesn't work. The point is to make kurdistan independent and have a regular access to and procurement of arms. Not to make it more dependent on a foreign power which can change its interest whenever it wants. Neither russia, china, USA, North-korea would be reliable long-term suppliers. We want to create an indepedent procurement medium, controlled by us, not by others. That is real strength.
Edited by lashgare, 21st November 2013 - 09:17 AM.
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| ALAN | 21st November 2013 - 05:14 PM Post #9 |
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I think he meant just a few orders of cargo plans full of weapons not continuous thou of course |
| Russian Girenak Joseph, who visited Kirkuk in Kurdistan as a part of his tour throu the 1870 - 1873 AD, who published the results of his trip & his studies later in 1879, in the 4th volume in the Bulletin of the Caucasus department of the Royal Geographical Russian Society estimated Kirkuk's population as many as 12-50,000 people, & he emphasized that except 40 Christian families, the rest of the population were Kurds. As for The Turkmen & Arabs, they have not been already existed at the time. | |
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 09:29 PM Post #10 |
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If this company could be created we could model it after the izmash company in Russia. They apparently produce firearms, both for local defense forces in Russia, aswell as export civilian export markets for US. Their biggest sector is actually civilian markets in foreign countries. We could sell all around the middle-east, caucasus, europe. We could market it to kurds even. And the fat rich gulf arabs. If it's properly marketed. But it also means that we'll have to compete with Heckler & Koch and many other better established private weapon producers. But if it's succesful and can expand... you can even buy licenses for the blueprints for RBS 70 NG, or any other anti-air/anti-tank/radar utility, and then export them.
Edited by lashgare, 21st November 2013 - 09:32 PM.
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| AlanJunior | 21st November 2013 - 09:54 PM Post #11 |
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Provocative? Do you think I don't want Kurdistan to have all these independent sectors? It's no point arguing with someone that has no knowledge of the technical aspects, their implications, the funding required, and the list goes on. Do you think it's as easy as come and go? First of all, are we assuming that we start from scratch? i.e. we master the technology required to manufacture the machinery required for a given industry? or are we assuming that we buy the machinery and go from there? regardless, the machinery is not an issue provided that we have the money, the important part here is understanding the physics, which is not easy, as in this case it is after all "rocket science" There is a reason for why there is only a handful of countries that successfully produce weaponry of significance, because ammunition is nothing, SK used to recycle and make bullets in the 60's... and making an AK-47 is not an issue either, but it so cheap and widely available that it would be silly to do so. What we're talking about here is heavy weaponry. Look at Iran for example, a country that has been free for hundreds of years, and has a developed higher education sector (in fact Iran is among the top nations for submitting scientific journals per year), and even so have only managed to produce a few half decent missiles, a fail helicopter and a very fail jet (fail copy of an F-4) and so, are you actually suggesting that the KRG plunge all their funds and resources into something as risky as making an independent arms industry? What purpose would that serve?! |
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 10:11 PM Post #12 |
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Actually we should have more of these discussions. And less discussions about bullshit like Race-mixing and other such nonsense. Young kurds are the future, when the older generation like talabani and barzani dies off. We need to be able to improve the conditions for the kurdish nation. Now that we have a chance to build a state, or atleast a strong nation, we should take it. We might be unexperienced, but the unexperienced can learn. Even a important discussion on a small forum like this, can be valuable for any kurds who read this forum.
Obviously it won't be easy, and come and go. But we're a in position to start such an industry. Expertise can be gained by opening research facilities and technical universities. Engineers can be recuited, both foreign and kurdish, to help build an industry in kurdistan. Machinery is obviously going to be imported. Because kurdistan does not have the expertise to build manufacturing centres. I wouldn't call it rocket science, only the heavy weaponary require extensive research. And that capacity to research and improve, can be built over time.
Irans problem isn't that they lack the research capacity or the technology. It's because of their political conditions at the moment, with all the restrictions put by USA & Allies. We don't suffer from this, because our goals aren't 180 degrees against US and other super-powers Interests. They cannot build a sucessful arms industry, because half of the world is allied with US, and they have trade blockades and other stuff. The point is not that KRG plunges all of its resources into this, actually this has to be financed mostly through private funds. The point is that you have to begin with a independent defense industry. Whether small or big, so that in the near future kurdistan can be equipped for conflicts. So that kurds don't have to depend on unreliable allies to buy weapons and get training. Rather the arms and training will be available, in our own territory, whenever we want or need them. It will empower kurds and put us on the map, meanwhile it makes us money. And I think KRG and kurds worldwide have enough money to finance such an industry. I think we're politically neutral enough with the largest countries in the world, to have enough leeway to be able to import technology and be sucessful in this endeavour. Unlike countries like Iran or North-korea.
Edited by lashgare, 21st November 2013 - 10:19 PM.
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| AlanJunior | 21st November 2013 - 10:17 PM Post #13 |
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Ah ok, so we're going to "import" the machinery? From who? and which border crossing exactly? with Iraq? Turkey? Iran? anyway I'm out of time now. But don't hold your breath on this one, it simply isn't going to happen for many many years to come. |
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 10:22 PM Post #14 |
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The company doesn't even have to start as a company located in kurdistan. If kurds in US/Europe were smart, they could open it there. The machinery itself can pass via israel to jordan to Iraq. It can be disguised as machinery for something else and ran via turkey even. It can pass via kuwait into iraq. Lots of ways to do this. |
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| AlanJunior | 21st November 2013 - 10:25 PM Post #15 |
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You're just making things up as you go along lol.. "hide" them? lets assume for the sake of arguments that we lied and it somehow made its way into Kurdistan, what happens when a machine breaks down? or we need spare parts? what scheme do you have mind for that? |
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 10:29 PM Post #16 |
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You don't need to hide it. You can declare it as machinery for something else. Milling machines that are used in manufacture of arms and other tools, can be declared for other purposes . I don't see the issue with spare parts of machine breaking down. It be acquired the same way. It can even be transported and flown from other countries. You're making it seem like we're trying to run hasish or something over the border. Heavy machinery can be brought. In worst case scenerio, we can build it ourselves with help from experts.
Edited by lashgare, 21st November 2013 - 10:32 PM.
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| AlanJunior | 21st November 2013 - 10:54 PM Post #17 |
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Milling machine? You need advanced and specialized machinery to manufacture arms.. and you won't be able to simply hide them.. Can I ask what your educational background is? |
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 11:08 PM Post #18 |
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It depends on the quality of the arms, some firearms are manufactured in simple workshops, others need more advanced facilities. I'm not an engineer, I'm currently studying economy. Either way this is a matter of legislation and movement. Most engineers aren't taught military science. Either way, I don't think this is an impossible task. Even if turks would disagree at first, there are ways to get around it. I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on fire-arms manufacturing or procurement, but I doubt it's impossible to get the equipment. With the right assistance and contacts. I'm going to try to research this.
Edited by lashgare, 21st November 2013 - 11:12 PM.
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| AlanJunior | 21st November 2013 - 11:19 PM Post #19 |
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So you have no prior understanding of manufacturing, physics behind the manufacture of arms, machinery, skills, maintenance and so on. I think we're done here. p.s: as an economist you should know that the arms that "don't require" advanced machinery which is pretty much just ammunition (very basic ammunition as some can get complex) are simply just not worth producing as they are widely available and cheap. For your sake, and for the sake of dropping this, let me just give you an example. If Kurdistan starts of from a civilian automotive industry, which will take time, maybe in the near future we'll be able to manufacture some sort of armored vehicles, however that will require us to manipulate certain materials to strengthen them, which requires expensive labs and other facilities. Having said that, there is no guarantee that they will work and would be off good quality, and the chances of them being able to match weaponry that is cheap and widely available on the market are very bleak, so once again, as an economist, you should know that given the facts of today's market, catching up is close to impossible given our time frame, and so, what is the point of producing your own weaponry if it's not going to fair well in battle? There are many better things Kurdistan can spend money and effort on, aspects that wouldn't put us in dispute with other nations. Iran wasn't created a "hostile" nation, however, their quest for independent arms and nukes is what makes them a "hostile" nation. Kurdistan should invest in tourism, education, medicinal and energy sectors. We're not in need of an arms industry.... |
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| lashgare | 21st November 2013 - 11:56 PM Post #20 |
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With due respect, neither do you, as a civilian engineer. Military science and engineering are monopolized by military institutions and goverments. That's not the issue here. Expertise can be created or bought. You can send kurdish engineers to be trained in military science.
No way... you haven't been reading political history about Iran then. Iran is enemies with US friends, that is the only reason why they have problems. Pakistan is an US ally, they have nukes. They're way worse than Iran in every single aspect of their country, including their economy and schooling, save for military technology. During the Shah years of Iran, Iran was one of US biggest military equipment importers.
Actually you can build SMGs, in very simple workshops. Armenians who were lacking arms in early stages of the nagarno-karabagh war(Before Iran started selling weapons to them) built SMGs in workshops. What i'm trying to say, is that unless we're talking about artillery pieces, anti-air/anti-tank and technologically advanced weaponery, you'll not need state of the art, high tech facilities. Atleast not of the sort that is used to produce anti-air/anti-tank/artillery/manpads. Some gunsmiths build or improve or adjust arms themselves. The advanced heavy weaponery, can come later as this weapons industry is established.
Then kurdistan won't be prepared for future conflicts. And then you have to rely on a third party to supply kurds(which is difficult since Irans/Turks/Iraqis can easily block it), and current stocks would be insufficient. You should see what happens to landlocked countries surrounded by hostile countries. The only way to sustain a country through war, is to either manufacture weapons and munitions and equipment or to receive them via supply routes. If there is a war with either Turkey, Iran and Iraq. We'll be pretty much screwed. US is unreliable, and won't come to our aid. Look at how sucessful bosnia was at fending off serbian nationalists and serbian army, by being landlocked. It was only after evidence of genocide and concentration camps surfaced, that nato came to their aid, otherwise, bosnia& herzegovina would BE serbian land today. You're forgetting that Iran aren't small like serbia and Turkey is in the friggin nato. We'll have way worse conditions. Even in other functions, lets say we want to liberate our territory from turkey or iran. We'd need a reliable way to procure arms.
That depends entirely on conditions. Actually the revenue of defense industries went up from the 2012. So I doubt that it will change soon. I'll do more research on this aswell. I wouldn't worry about the quality of the weapons, this is purely hypothetical scenerioes. I know that a standard procedure in the defense industries is to use testing trials before products are released.
Edited by lashgare, 22nd November 2013 - 12:05 AM.
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| AlanJunior | 22nd November 2013 - 12:33 AM Post #21 |
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What? The technology used in the military isnt different to those used in the civilian sectors, in fact most companies that sell arms are civilian companies selling on the side. The physics behind it is the same with some changes, still the samr. Anyway you have proved to me that you don't have an understanding of the subject apart from a vague political/economic aspect and so I can't reason with someone that thinks you can produce any weapons of significance this simply. |
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| lashgare | 22nd November 2013 - 02:02 AM Post #22 |
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Some of the physics are the same. But they don't teach you how to build arms. They don't teach you ballistics, they don't teach you weapons electronics, they don't teach you about rocketeering or missles, or guidance systems, or any of thatsort. I've asked around the technical universities, like KTH, they're not allowed to give civilians military engineering educations, it's forbidden by law. And it's like for every country. Only military and private academices are allowed to teach. How is the economic or political aspect vague? You should read some military analysis of nagarno-karabagh war, soviet-invasion of afghanistan, south ossetia war between georgia and russia, bosnian war, first chechen war. Those were all in landlocked countries. There is nothing vague about that. And the economy, i'm reading about that. This is analysis which shows that saudi-arabia/Iran/US had to fly weapons to bosnia, because most of the arms and arms factories were controlled by serbs: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/22/warcrimes.comment Help yourself: http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments/production On arms-sales http://books.sipri.org/product_info?c_product_id=455# The arms imports in africa and asia have been increasing steadily since 2007 to 2012. Only certain parts of Middle-east and EU have decreased imports. So there is still a market which is growing, especially in china, india and pakistan. Here is the listing of overall value of all arms imports and exports: http://workshop.chromeexperiments.com/projects/armsglobe/ Going deeper with this hypothetical isn't a problem. You have to remember it's a hypothetical. Not buisness proposal. We're discussing this and making arguments for it.
Edited by lashgare, 22nd November 2013 - 02:28 AM.
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| AlanJunior | 22nd November 2013 - 05:21 AM Post #23 |
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Meh... that is all incorporated into two of the main Engineering subjects. Thermo fluids (Fluid Mechanics and Fluid dynamics) and Statics and Dynamics, which I did study, but off course, for the design of anything you would have many engineers working in a team, splitting the tasks into smaller team. I'm not going to even try to explain it to you as you wont be familiar with the terminology. We're done here, I'm not going to argue with you anymore since all post long you have been making things up as you go along, and let me put it quite frankly. This isn't going to happen in our life time for sure. |
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| lashgare | 22nd November 2013 - 07:04 AM Post #24 |
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We'll see man... a skeptical attitude won't help though. |
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| ALAN | 17th December 2013 - 05:51 PM Post #25 |
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I really hope KRG builds weapon manufacture for light arms then supply other parts in time of need (liberations) |
| Russian Girenak Joseph, who visited Kirkuk in Kurdistan as a part of his tour throu the 1870 - 1873 AD, who published the results of his trip & his studies later in 1879, in the 4th volume in the Bulletin of the Caucasus department of the Royal Geographical Russian Society estimated Kirkuk's population as many as 12-50,000 people, & he emphasized that except 40 Christian families, the rest of the population were Kurds. As for The Turkmen & Arabs, they have not been already existed at the time. | |
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