History of the Feyli Kurds/Ilam/Luristan-i-kuchik

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History of the Feyli Kurds/Ilam/Luristan-i-kuchik
Topic Started: 9th October 2013 - 06:34 AM (42,972 Views)
jjmuneer	12th January 2015 - 01:23 AM Post #26
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	Kurdish Awakening: Nation Building in a Fragmented Homeland edited by Ofra Bengio



jjmuneer	12th January 2015 - 01:30 AM Post #27
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	Iran: Country Study Guide edited by Usa Ibp



jjmuneer	12th January 2015 - 01:50 AM Post #28
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	Zert what do you think of this? Minorities in Iran: Nationalism and Ethnicity After Khomeini By Rasmus Christian Elling



jjmuneer	12th January 2015 - 01:56 AM Post #29
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	Land of Lion, Land of Sun By Rafie Hamidpour Ph. D. D. E. Dabfe, Rafie Hamidpour



Zert	12th January 2015 - 09:00 AM Post #30
Posts: 175 Group: Senior Members Member #48 Joined: Jan 30, 2013	jjmuneer 12th January 2015 - 01:50 AM Zert what do you think of this? Minorities in Iran: Nationalism and Ethnicity After Khomeini By Rasmus Christian Elling That's quite unnuanced. I've read of some Turkish and Arab tribes mixing with Kurds, thereby becoming Kurds, but not of them outright changing from one language (and ethnicity) to another. Genetically these cases haven't popped up yet either, though likely, their genetic input would be diluted by now. The Rawadids are said to have been of Arab origin, which then mixed with, and ultimately became, Kurds. Also, 'Kurd' indeed seems to have had a socioeconomic designation, but by the 10th century we've already evidence of it being used in a clear ethnographic way. You should read '2014.Arab Ethnonyms ('Ajam, 'Arab, Badu and Turk) the Kurdish Case', in the folder 'History.Middle Ages' in the drive I shared with you. The author does a great job at deconstructing the usage of 'Kurd' throughout the centuries, something which I haven't seen other Kurdologists do. Edited by Zert, 12th January 2015 - 09:02 AM.



Zert	12th January 2015 - 09:15 AM Post #31
Posts: 175 Group: Senior Members Member #48 Joined: Jan 30, 2013	By the way, the author of the article I recommended, Boris James, is one of the main academics whose works I anticipate. He has a very good knowledge of the medieval Arabic sources, and apparently knows Kurdish and Persian as well. His main field of study seems to be Kurdish medieval history. He seems young too, so we can expect a lot more from him. He got his PhD with a thesis about Kurds during Mamluk and Mongol times, but that isn't published yet.



lashgare	13th January 2015 - 05:03 PM Post #32
BANNED Posts: 767 Group: New Members Member #232 Joined: Sep 6, 2013 Mood None	Zert 12th January 2015 - 09:00 AM jjmuneer 12th January 2015 - 01:50 AM Zert what do you think of this? Minorities in Iran: Nationalism and Ethnicity After Khomeini By Rasmus Christian Elling That's quite unnuanced. I've read of some Turkish and Arab tribes mixing with Kurds, thereby becoming Kurds, but not of them outright changing from one language (and ethnicity) to another. Genetically these cases haven't popped up yet either, though likely, their genetic input would be diluted by now. The Rawadids are said to have been of Arab origin, which then mixed with, and ultimately became, Kurds. Also, 'Kurd' indeed seems to have had a socioeconomic designation, but by the 10th century we've already evidence of it being used in a clear ethnographic way. You should read '2014.Arab Ethnonyms ('Ajam, 'Arab, Badu and Turk) the Kurdish Case', in the folder 'History.Middle Ages' in the drive I shared with you. The author does a great job at deconstructing the usage of 'Kurd' throughout the centuries, something which I haven't seen other Kurdologists do. He is right to some extent. What counts as kurd is that they're a collection of north-west iranian speaking tribes that coalescenced during late antiquity and the medieval ages. But that doesn't mean anything. Lots of modern day nations have gone through the same process. Kurds and lor-kurds are the only ones who've maintained their north-western iranian languages. Besides kermanshan and ilam present transitional areas. Rather than being entirely Kurdish or lurish proper. The problem with writers like this.. is they don't have deeper historic knowledge. It's more of an ethnographic analysis from a socio-cultural/habitual perspective. Edited by lashgare, 13th January 2015 - 05:05 PM.



jjmuneer	13th January 2015 - 11:28 PM Post #33
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	^The problem most of these linguists and historians seem to believe Lors are not Kurds, and thus have labelled Feylis as non-Kurds in the process. However it makes no logical sense to name an Ali Shirwani a Kurd but a Lori feyli group just east as non-Kurd. Since all our customs, dialect, clothing and all the same.



lashgare	14th January 2015 - 04:39 AM Post #34
BANNED Posts: 767 Group: New Members Member #232 Joined: Sep 6, 2013 Mood None	jjmuneer 13th January 2015 - 11:28 PM ^The problem most of these linguists and historians seem to believe Lors are not Kurds, and thus have labelled Feylis as non-Kurds in the process. However it makes no logical sense to name an Ali Shirwani a Kurd but a Lori feyli group just east as non-Kurd. Since all our customs, dialect, clothing and all the same. It's because feylis are a transitional people, hence lor-kurds(this goes for kermanshanis, laks, kalhoris, feylis, and any north-western speakers in that general region). Our language is Kurdish with heavy elements of lurish. While feyli kurds can understand lurish, other kurds cannot. The further east you go and the south, the more south-western the local dialects become. True lurish is more like khorramabadi and Borujerdi. Which is inbetween kurdish and persian. Lurs are the bridge between the north-western and south-western languages. Bakhtiyari is mutually intelligble with persian, even though it's maintained it's archaic, pre-persian structure. Even in the bakhtiari villages which weren't affected by the reza pahlavis racist anti-lur/anti-feyli campaigns. I'd say that lurs in pish-i-kuh, who do not call themselves feyli and have a language that isn't mutually intelligble, like between feyli lor-kurds and laks. Are proper lurs. The difference between who is kurdish or lurish is quite blurry in that area. Edited by lashgare, 14th January 2015 - 05:04 AM.



Pker2theend	14th January 2015 - 05:11 AM Post #35
Posts: 4,523 Group: Senior Members Member #276 Joined: Oct 25, 2013 Mood None	jjmuneer 12th January 2015 - 01:23 AM Kurdish Awakening: Nation Building in a Fragmented Homeland edited by Ofra Bengio PDKI does not represent all Rojhaletis, at the time Sanandaj ( Sina) was a komala stronghold. This story blames PDKI, because shias in rojhalet side with Iranian government? LOL Edited by Pker2theend, 14th January 2015 - 05:15 AM.



lashgare	14th January 2015 - 06:22 AM Post #36
BANNED Posts: 767 Group: New Members Member #232 Joined: Sep 6, 2013 Mood None	Pker2theend 14th January 2015 - 05:11 AM jjmuneer 12th January 2015 - 01:23 AM Kurdish Awakening: Nation Building in a Fragmented Homeland edited by Ofra Bengio PDKI does not represent all Rojhaletis, at the time Sanandaj ( Sina) was a komala stronghold. This story blames PDKI, because shias in rojhalet side with Iranian government? LOL dun care, please let us discuss in peace. This thread is not about party politics or PDKI. Edited by lashgare, 14th January 2015 - 06:23 AM.



lashgare	14th January 2015 - 07:05 AM Post #37
BANNED Posts: 767 Group: New Members Member #232 Joined: Sep 6, 2013 Mood None	On ilam by freya stark(attached a file): Map she drew (which you can find in the PDF-FILE in higher resolution) Attached to this post: The_Push_I_Kuh.pdf (3.68 MB) Edited by lashgare, 14th January 2015 - 07:21 AM.



Tesseract	14th January 2015 - 05:21 PM Post #38
Posts: 150 Group: Senior Members Member #189 Joined: Jul 8, 2013	jjmuneer 13th January 2015 - 11:28 PM ^The problem most of these linguists and historians seem to believe Lors are not Kurds, and thus have labelled Feylis as non-Kurds in the process. However it makes no logical sense to name an Ali Shirwani a Kurd but a Lori feyli group just east as non-Kurd. Since all our customs, dialect, clothing and all the same. What do you think of Shahre Kord? It's claimed it does not mean "city of Kurds" but rather it comes from an older name "Dezh Gord". Seems like way too much of a coincidence to me. It then was supposedly corrupted to "Deh Kord", but then "Deh" in Persian means village, so it could be understood as "village of Kurds".



jjmuneer	14th January 2015 - 11:19 PM Post #39
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	lashgare 14th January 2015 - 04:39 AM jjmuneer 13th January 2015 - 11:28 PM ^The problem most of these linguists and historians seem to believe Lors are not Kurds, and thus have labelled Feylis as non-Kurds in the process. However it makes no logical sense to name an Ali Shirwani a Kurd but a Lori feyli group just east as non-Kurd. Since all our customs, dialect, clothing and all the same. It's because feylis are a transitional people, hence lor-kurds(this goes for kermanshanis, laks, kalhoris, feylis, and any north-western speakers in that general region). Our language is Kurdish with heavy elements of lurish. While feyli kurds can understand lurish, other kurds cannot. The further east you go and the south, the more south-western the local dialects become. True lurish is more like khorramabadi and Borujerdi. Which is inbetween kurdish and persian. Lurs are the bridge between the north-western and south-western languages. Bakhtiyari is mutually intelligble with persian, even though it's maintained it's archaic, pre-persian structure. Even in the bakhtiari villages which weren't affected by the reza pahlavis racist anti-lur/anti-feyli campaigns. I'd say that lurs in pish-i-kuh, who do not call themselves feyli and have a language that isn't mutually intelligble, like between feyli lor-kurds and laks. Are proper lurs. The difference between who is kurdish or lurish is quite blurry in that area. There no such thing as Lur dialect, it's basically Persian. And Khorramabad is feyli, my dad has been there several times. Only difference is southern lurs are persianized.



lashgare	15th January 2015 - 03:20 AM Post #40
BANNED Posts: 767 Group: New Members Member #232 Joined: Sep 6, 2013 Mood None	jjmuneer 14th January 2015 - 11:19 PM lashgare 14th January 2015 - 04:39 AM Quoting limited to 2 levels deep There no such thing as Lur dialect, it's basically Persian. And Khorramabad is feyli, my dad has been there several times. Only difference is southern lurs are persianized. So these guys are persian? There are some similarities between lurish and feyli kurdish. But saying that a lur from khorramabad is the same as a kurd from ilam, well there is not much i can say that to. Recently we meet sayids from khorramabad and borujerd. Well they had certain words in common with kurdish, it was not feyli kurdish. Not entirely anyway. And lurs have exised for more than a millenium. They're transitional people. Mamsani and bakhtiari lurs, definitely do not speak anything similar to feyli kurdish. Only hamedan/khorramabad/borujerd do. Because they're intermediate.



jjmuneer	15th January 2015 - 04:23 AM Post #41
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	Those are Bakhaitirs in the vid. I'm not sure who this sayyed is, but his probably a Persian. I don't mean people in Khorrambed speak Feyli, I simply mean they are Luri-Kurds. I personally don't see what is "transitional" about them, it's pretty obvious they've just been persianized. It explains Kurdish loanwords. Atleast one thing is certain no early linguists prior to the 19th century to identify this, atleast the rulers were of Kurdish stock.



jjmuneer	15th January 2015 - 04:24 AM Post #42
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	Tesseract 14th January 2015 - 05:21 PM jjmuneer 13th January 2015 - 11:28 PM ^The problem most of these linguists and historians seem to believe Lors are not Kurds, and thus have labelled Feylis as non-Kurds in the process. However it makes no logical sense to name an Ali Shirwani a Kurd but a Lori feyli group just east as non-Kurd. Since all our customs, dialect, clothing and all the same. What do you think of Shahre Kord? It's claimed it does not mean "city of Kurds" but rather it comes from an older name "Dezh Gord". Seems like way too much of a coincidence to me. It then was supposedly corrupted to "Deh Kord", but then "Deh" in Persian means village, so it could be understood as "village of Kurds". Some Persians like to twist things. They even claim Feylis are Iranian.



jjmuneer	15th January 2015 - 04:28 AM Post #43
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	Just look they claim lurs are persian: Quote: Darius Ashkani5 months ago Lurs are ethnic Persians and speak a Persian dialect related to Pahlavi middle Persian. MrAfreeworld2 years agoin reply to SeeN0More Lori is an archaic form of Persian, end of thread.. no kurds or kurdish. No point in arguing with these people.



lashgare	15th January 2015 - 05:16 AM Post #44
BANNED Posts: 767 Group: New Members Member #232 Joined: Sep 6, 2013 Mood None	jjmuneer 15th January 2015 - 04:23 AM Those are Bakhaitirs in the vid. I'm not sure who this sayyed is, but his probably a Persian. I don't mean people in Khorrambed speak Feyli, I simply mean they are Luri-Kurds. I personally don't see what is "transitional" about them, it's pretty obvious they've just been persianized. It explains Kurdish loanwords. Atleast one thing is certain no early linguists prior to the 19th century to identify this, atleast the rulers were of Kurdish stock. They haven't been persianized. Because proper lurs were neither kurds or persians mayne. I know you strongly want to pish-i-kuh lurs to be ilami kurds. But they're not mayne. They are their own ethnicity(they themselves . Their language has similarities to our dialect. Because they're transitional. And they have a long history. You can look up them all the way to the middla-ages.



jjmuneer	15th January 2015 - 05:36 AM Post #45
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	lashgare 15th January 2015 - 05:16 AM jjmuneer 15th January 2015 - 04:23 AM Those are Bakhaitirs in the vid. I'm not sure who this sayyed is, but his probably a Persian. I don't mean people in Khorrambed speak Feyli, I simply mean they are Luri-Kurds. I personally don't see what is "transitional" about them, it's pretty obvious they've just been persianized. It explains Kurdish loanwords. Atleast one thing is certain no early linguists prior to the 19th century to identify this, atleast the rulers were of Kurdish stock. They haven't been persianized. Because proper lurs were neither kurds or persians mayne. I know you strongly want to pish-i-kuh lurs to be ilami kurds. But they're not mayne. They are their own ethnicity(they themselves . Their language has similarities to our dialect. Because they're transitional. And they have a long history. You can look up them all the way to the middla-ages. So you trying to tell me they were transitional in their origin? Just look at the etymology of their name and how recent their ethnicity is: [img]http://111.imagebam.com/download/Q1Lh5Xq_lqUwRYyItAQA8A/38048/380479786/feyliluri2.jpg[/img To me they are brance off Kurds.



lashgare	16th January 2015 - 01:49 AM Post #46
BANNED Posts: 767 Group: New Members Member #232 Joined: Sep 6, 2013 Mood None	jjmuneer 15th January 2015 - 05:36 AM lashgare 15th January 2015 - 05:16 AM Quoting limited to 2 levels deep So you trying to tell me they were transitional in their origin? Just look at the etymology of their name and how recent their ethnicity is: [img]http://111.imagebam.com/download/Q1Lh5Xq_lqUwRYyItAQA8A/38048/380479786/feyliluri2.jpg[/img To me they are brance off Kurds. They themselves claim to be seperate from kurds and persians. And that text dates them to at the very least middle-ages, which would imply they're even an older collection of groups. T ey're definitely not persian, and at the same not kurdish. I don't see what would be irrational about that. Lots of transitional people around the world, lots of transitional areas. in coastal and geographically transitional areas. Nothing else explains the existence of lurs. And if persianization happened. At what period of time? PISH-I-KUH wasn't under Persian control, until reza pahlavi. That was in the 40s. Changing to a different language takes alot more time than that. And it isn't as applicable to rural areas as it is to towns and cities. In the time before that, it was in chaotic state, and was one of the less developed provinces in the entire region. Qajars couldn't control the area, neither could the safavids. Which would be the neccesary pre-requisite for persification. Same goes for the mamsani, koh-giluyeh, bakhtiari lurs. Their areas haven't been controlled until very recently. When did they begin calling themselves lurs? Because it was definitely not under the qajars or the pahlavis. If they we assume that they're a branch of ilami feyli kurds? Ask any bakhtiari, or person from khorramabad, they'll say they're lur. Not because of persian propaganda. That's what they've called themselves for a long time. Do they have same origin as kurds, sure, but they've evolved into a different ethnicity. Much like the dutch from the danish. Or north-germans from the danish. Or the swedes from the norwegians. Edited by lashgare, 16th January 2015 - 07:27 AM.



jjmuneer	21st January 2015 - 08:06 AM Post #47
Posts: 2,112 Group: Senior Members Member #158 Joined: May 30, 2013 Mood None	lashgare 16th January 2015 - 01:49 AM jjmuneer 15th January 2015 - 05:36 AM Quoting limited to 2 levels deep[img]http://111.imagebam.com/download/Q1Lh5Xq_lqUwRYyItAQA8A/38048/380479786/feyliluri2.jpg[/img To me they are brance off Kurds. They themselves claim to be seperate from kurds and persians. And that text dates them to at the very least middle-ages, which would imply they're even an older collection of groups. T ey're definitely not persian, and at the same not kurdish. I don't see what would be irrational about that. Lots of transitional people around the world, lots of transitional areas. in coastal and geographically transitional areas. Nothing else explains the existence of lurs. And if persianization happened. At what period of time? PISH-I-KUH wasn't under Persian control, until reza pahlavi. That was in the 40s. Changing to a different language takes alot more time than that. And it isn't as applicable to rural areas as it is to towns and cities. In the time before that, it was in chaotic state, and was one of the less developed provinces in the entire region. Qajars couldn't control the area, neither could the safavids. Which would be the neccesary pre-requisite for persification. Same goes for the mamsani, koh-giluyeh, bakhtiari lurs. Their areas haven't been controlled until very recently. When did they begin calling themselves lurs? Because it was definitely not under the qajars or the pahlavis. If they we assume that they're a branch of ilami feyli kurds? Ask any bakhtiari, or person from khorramabad, they'll say they're lur. Not because of persian propaganda. That's what they've called themselves for a long time. Do they have same origin as kurds, sure, but they've evolved into a different ethnicity. Much like the dutch from the danish. Or north-germans from the danish. Or the swedes from the norwegians. And by the argument we Kurds aren't really an ethnicity, because we have "evolved". I don't buy that, then again you haven't visit EK or those areas. The only way you'll understand is if you visit those areas.



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