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German Armed Forces-Die Bundeswehr
Topic Started: 21st May 2015 - 02:56 AM (106,551 Views)
kurdo82
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Edited by kurdo82, 8th November 2015 - 01:52 AM.
KURDISTAN
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Adler
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Thank you for opening this thread.
I only wanted to say:
I've discussed so much about the Bundeswehr in the SK-Peshmerga thread, because of our weapon deliveries to the Peshmerga and what the Bundeswehr may be able to deliver.....and what we can't deliver because we have sold that stuff elsewhere or scrapped it.
I hope, that was alright.
Edited by Adler, 21st May 2015 - 03:59 AM.
"The people are sleeping better if they don't know how laws and sausages are made"
Bismarck
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Chatulio
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Hello Adler,

certainly that was alright, as that is a primary concern for the Peshmerga as well.
Overall, most has been said in the Peshmerga-thread and has to be posted there as well so that more persons on the forums see it (like inventories of the next supply flights once they are posted by the Bundeswehr).


With best regards,

Chatulio
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 04:14 AM
Hello Adler,

certainly that was alright, as that is a primary concern for the Peshmerga as well.
Overall, most has been said in the Peshmerga-thread and has to be posted there as well so that more persons on the forums see it (like inventories of the next supply flights once they are posted by the Bundeswehr).


With best regards,

Chatulio
Alles klar! :cheers:
"The people are sleeping better if they don't know how laws and sausages are made"
Bismarck
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Well, now where we have here a Bundeswehr thread....let's start with some German feelgood-propaganda from some private channels from YouTube.
Not really something informative.
More something for the suppressed German patriotic feelings.....(I love those videos hihi ):

A short "Winter-Tribute":

Edited by Adler, 21st May 2015 - 04:39 AM.
"The people are sleeping better if they don't know how laws and sausages are made"
Bismarck
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Hello Kurdo82,

I agree that the state of the german military is ... mildly put, greatly underfunded, greatly understaffed and greatly underpaid and the military administration (from generals to the procurement office) act in very ... intransparent and inept ways and I'm impressed what the soldiers still get done despite all the high-level failures.

Especially the procurement office is an immense bureaucratic dinosaur that still can't manage to organize a law-expert to assist in negotiations with the arms industry (who shamelessly abuse this ineptitude of the procurement office, of course).

With luck, the crisis situation at the moment enforces a healthy reformation.
What it already did was halting the disarmament policies while their was still a military to speak of.

Politically, it is a matter of public opinion and budget cuts in the military budget were always the way to save money without negative voter impact. If the public opinion shifts, I think it does in the new generations, then politicians can't cut into the military budget that easily again and the current threat-situation gives plenty of arguments for the Ministry of Defense to request more money from the federal budget. I'm glad that the current minister at least does something in that regard.


With best regards,

Chatulio
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kurdo82
21st May 2015 - 04:44 AM
the german military is not able to procure the newest version of the Leopard II out of budget concerns, i believe sadi arabia bought the newest version
As far as I know we have / are getting some of the latest Leopard II.
But only some.
The last information I have is, that Saudi Arabia will not get the latest Leopard.
This is the first time we didn't deliver something to them, as far as I am informed.

For the rest:
The politicians thought that we are surrounded by friendly nations and we wouldn't need any large military anymore.
That illusion lasted nearly 15 years.
15 years of abandoning national service and massive military budget cuts and a sloppy handling of the Bundeswehr and new projects in general.
And suddlenly Putin and the IS came along. Mainly Putin.
Just when we sold and scrapped nearly everything.

And yes:
Because of our history we have those damned pacifists running around and try to sabotage our efforts.
Now is a new situation for the whole of Germany.
That includes the deliveries of the weapons to the Kurds.
I am convinced, that we will reorganize everything. All those loud scandals in the moment about the sorry state of the Bundeswehr will have consequences. Positive consequences for the quality of our army, like I think.
And of course we don't want the Wehrmacht back.
Even if we know, that we have to repair and reorganize our Bundeswehr.
"The people are sleeping better if they don't know how laws and sausages are made"
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Hello Adler,

yes, the german military has, according to news a few weeks old, 20 Leopard 2A7 so far, the rest is planned to be converted over the next 2 years. The 2A7+ that Saudi-Arabia wanted has only had a prototype so far and the + was the urban combat equipment. (Interestingly even Israel declared they had no problems with this procurement request from Saudi-Arabia, likely hoping for the tanks to be used against Iran.)
As such urban combat equipment on tanks is extremely unpopular in the German public (it smacks of using the tanks against unarmed civilians), they left that out and also saved money.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Edited by Chatulio, 21st May 2015 - 05:17 AM.
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 05:02 AM
Hello Kurdo82,

I agree that the state of the german military is ... mildly put, greatly underfunded, greatly understaffed and greatly underpaid and the military administration (from generals to the procurement office) act in very ... intransparent and inept ways and I'm impressed what the soldiers still get done despite all the high-level failures.

Especially the procurement office is an immense bureaucratic dinosaur that still can't manage to organize a law-expert to assist in negotiations with the arms industry (who shamelessly abuse this ineptitude of the procurement office, of course).

With luck, the crisis situation at the moment enforces a healthy reformation.
What it already did was halting the disarmament policies while their was still a military to speak of.

Politically, it is a matter of public opinion and budget cuts in the military budget were always the way to save money without negative voter impact. If the public opinion shifts, I think it does in the new generations, then politicians can't cut into the military budget that easily again and the current threat-situation gives plenty of arguments for the Ministry of Defense to request more money from the federal budget. I'm glad that the current minister at least does something in that regard.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Exactly.
What we have here is a supertanker (political mindsets in the parliament and the whole country and a stripped down army).
This supertanker was shipping with full force in the wrong direction for 15 years where we thought, that we wouldn't need any military anymore.
Therefore the skandals in the moment are good.
I think, now everybody finally has awoken.
Even in politics and the bureaucracy of the Bundeswehr.
It isn't easy to get that supertanker on the right course again. But we are working at it.
Falling down is no shame.
Not to get up again is a shame.
"The people are sleeping better if they don't know how laws and sausages are made"
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Hello Adler,

at least we didn't go as far as the Netherlands or the UK, the later having closed down its tank production lines (as far as I know), so the know-how also slowly disappears and the Netherlands have (again as far as I've read in the news a few years back) disbanded their tank troops, again with dissipation of know-how, that takes time to recover.
The situation of the german military is not beyond the point-of-no-return and the current sitaution was in all likelyhood a very necessary wake-up call.
And despite the current state of affairs, the Bundeswehr manages being the most important foreign supplier of the Peshmerga, supplying what they still have in reserve, including weapons that have an actual impact on the war. This support might also help the Bundeswehr as well, helping to shake off the dust of the past and further stress the needs for new equipment and funding.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Edited by Chatulio, 21st May 2015 - 05:37 AM.
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 05:22 AM
Hello Adler,

at least we didn't go as far as the Netherlands or the UK, the later having closed down its tank production lines (as far as I know), so the know-how also slowly disappears and the Netherlands have (again as far as I've read in the news a few years back) disbanded their tank troops, again with dissipation of know-how, that takes time to recover.
The situation of the german military is not beyond the point-of-no-return and the current sitaution was in all likelyhood a very necessary wake-up call.
And despite the current state of affairs, the Bundeswehr manages being the most important foreign supplier of the Peshmerga, supplying what they still have in reserve. This support might also help the Bundeswehr as well, helping to shake off the dust of the past disarmaments and further stress the needs for new equipment and funding.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Let's hope that Ursula von der Leyen does her job properly now.
And to be fair:
The major damage was done by the politicians who came before her and the general German peace-mindset after the cold war.
I think, many people are underestimating her because she's a woman and because of her barrack-Kindergarten ideas.
She wants to be the next Kanzlerin.
She will do anything for that goal. And if that means to turn the Bundeswehr into an army again she will do that.

But still it all happens so very slow.
On the other side: What do we expect?
That task is huge. That isn't happening within one month.
And Uschi has to fight with one new disadvantage. The abandoning of the national service.
That is a task no other defense minister had to solve before.
Edited by Adler, 21st May 2015 - 05:44 AM.
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Hello Adler,

so far she seems to do a well enough job (clearing off more dust than both previous ministers taken together), and people should slowly stop underestimating her. The task is huge and the administration and military command staff are, to some degree, against her and her efforts. It's nothing that can be done over night, but she seems to be on a good path.

The lack of national service means, of course, that the military has to offer conditions worth accepting for capable young, capable candidates. At least the military uses female soldiers fully now too, letting them contribute as well and thus boost the numbers of available candidates.
An advantage might be that the soldiers who have signed on have more interest in it than soldiers on national service and as they stay longer, they can gather more experience, which could make them more useful on missions and thus generally improve average quality and readiness of the german military.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Edited by Chatulio, 21st May 2015 - 05:55 AM.
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 05:51 AM
Hello Adler,

so far she seems to do a well enough job (clearing off more dust than both previous ministers taken together), and people should slowly stop underestimating her. The task is huge and the administration and military command staff are, to some degree, against her and her efforts. It's nothing that can be done over night, but she seems to be on a good path.

The lack of national service means, of course, that the military has to offer conditions worth accepting for capable young people. At least the military uses female soldiers fully now too, letting them contribute as well and thus boost the numbers of available candidates.
An advantage might be that the soldiers who have signed on have more interest in it than soldiers on national service and as they stay longer, gathering more experience, which could make them more useful on missions and thus generally improve average quality and readiness of the german military.


With best regards,

Chatulio
I still can't imagine how THAT is working now in everyday life in the Bundeswehr without the national service...but WITH the need to lure young, well educated people into the army.
Especially with the new recruits and during the basic education.
Are they talking now in a polite tone to them instead of barking orders into their faces?
A soft, polite tone instead of drilling them hard until they do basic things automatically (what will save their lives in the end)?

Somehow I can't imagine how that will work in the end.... lol
Edited by Adler, 21st May 2015 - 06:01 AM.
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Hello Adler,

no, but those who can deal with that can get through the drilling phase.
Those suitable to and interested in military service can and will manage. After all, even in the last years of national service, the military had to work with voluntary soldiers for most tasks and it seems to go well enough so far. The payment isn't excessive, but it is something and can be a decent lure as well if no better jobs are available.

And it's not like the german military is the first all voluntary military in the world and I don't hear anything about US drill seargants getting less loud. Posted Image


With best regards,

Chatulio
Edited by Chatulio, 21st May 2015 - 06:10 AM.
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 06:06 AM
Hello Adler,

no, but those who can deal with that can get through the drilling phase.
Those suitable to military service can and will manage. After all, even in the last years of national service, the military had to work with voluntary soldiers for most tasks and it seems to go well enough so far.
And it's not like the german military is the first all voluntary military in the world and I don't hear anything about US drill seargants getting less loud. Posted Image


With best regards,

Chatulio
True words.
All I want to see now is at least ONE of all those scandals and problems finally and satisfactory solved.
First I want them to stop to ruin the reputation of Heckler & Koch with that nonsensical G36 affair.
Purely political motivated, if you ask me.

Anyway: If they want to turn that Assault Rifle into a light machine gun with some additional parts....so be it.
Because that's basically what they want to do.
Because all those lefty media people and the green/left in the Bundestag have no clue about the difference between a Sturmgewehr and a Maschinengewehr and what happens to EVERY Sturmgewehr, if you empty several magazines in one go with it.
I think, that is one of the root causes of this whole wannabe-scandal around that assault rifle.
And the urge of the political lefty-pacifist opposition to damage Uschi and our "bad" weapon manufacturers alike.
Edited by Adler, 21st May 2015 - 06:18 AM.
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Hello Adler,

perhaps the G36 'scandal' can be used to beat some dust off from the procurement office as it seems it was their 'fault' to buy the G36 despite knowing it's not made for auto-fire (the also offered MG36 had that capability after all, being insignificantly heavier and more expensive). And it could be used to argue for more money to refit the G36 or obtain an even better assault rifle (like the HK416).


With best regards,

Chatulio
Edited by Chatulio, 21st May 2015 - 06:24 AM.
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Hello Kurdo82,

if I remember correctly, the HK 416 was the rifle that did better than the G36 in the autofire tests that the german military did last year to investigate the G36 autofire-inaccuracy reports.
So the name is already in politicial circulation.
And the weapon is already in use by the KSK (Kommando Spezialkräfte, german special forces), so it has already passed all tests of the german military and can thus be acquired immediately without any more paperwork or testing.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Edited by Chatulio, 21st May 2015 - 06:31 AM.
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 06:23 AM
Hello Adler,

perhaps the G36 'scandal' can be used to beat some dust off from the procurement office as it seems it was their 'fault' to buy the G36 despite knowing it's not made for auto-fire (the also offered MG36 had that capability after all, being insignificantly heavier and more expensive). And it could be used to argue for more money to refit the G36 or obtain an even better assault rifle (like the HK416).


With best regards,

Chatulio
The HK 416 for the whole Bundeswehr would be the best solution.
And even if that rifle is more expensive than the G36 it is a very good gun and it wouldn't be as expensive as many other military projects of the Bundeswehr.

They only should make sure that the reputation of H&K is not damaged in the end.
Because I am convinced, that H&K delivered exactly, what the politicians have ordered twenty years ago. Needless to mention, that suddenly the politics has "forgotten" about the parameters for their gun-order 20 years ago.

And our "quality" media are not even now able to decide between a Sturmgewehr and a Maschinengewehr.
Right yesterday a well known journalist and second important editor of Die Welt has mistaken the Sturmgewehr G36 AGAIN for a Maschinengewehr in a life interview. After he proudly mentioned, that he refused the military service and served in the civil service instead.
Those are the "specialists" in our media who are reporting for months now about that G36.
In an ever increasing hysterical manner.
Edited by Adler, 21st May 2015 - 06:37 AM.
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kurdo82
21st May 2015 - 06:24 AM
The HK 416 would be an optimal choice
Agreed!
Many people are saying that.
"The people are sleeping better if they don't know how laws and sausages are made"
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Hello Adler,

it seems to me that either a refitt of the G36 to MG36 standard and/or a replacement with the HK 416 are the more likely alternatives that can also be done both (first the refit and over time the replacement).

As far the bashing of H&K goes, it has certainly gone somewhat out of hand, but may have been also intended to beat more dust off the procurement office (seeing some had to quit their jobs there after it came to light how tightly intertwined they were with a private company).
With a refit and/or replacement from H&K, the reputation of H&K should be restored.


With best regards,

Chatulio
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 06:41 AM
Hello Adler,

it seems to me that either a refitt of the G36 to MG36 standard and/or a replacement with the HK 416 are the more likely alternatives that can also be done both (first the refit and over time the replacement).

As far the bashing of H&K goes, it has certainly gone somewhat out of hand, but may have been also intended to beat more dust off the procurement office (seeing some had to quit their jobs there after it came to light how tightly intertwined they were with a private company).
With a refit and/or replacement from H&K, the reputation of H&K should be restored.


With best regards,

Chatulio
True. Like so often in politics, business and life in general....there is no pure black and white. No one is really completely innocent in that affair.
And the involvement of Bundeswehr personal into arms industry was always a problem where nobody seemed to be able to do something about it.
Maybe this is the time to clean up all that mess that has piled up for decades.
The Kurds get the G36 and we get the HK 416.
A double win of security for Germany and a win for the Kurds alike.

So let's hope they don't make some halfhearted, technical convertings of the G36 into the MG36, I would say.
Edited by Adler, 21st May 2015 - 06:58 AM.
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Hello Adler,

I'd suspect that a refit to MG36 standard would be the first step, but von der Leyen has stated that, after a quick fix, she wants a proper replacement over the next years and for that the HK 416 would be the best candidate.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Edited by Chatulio, 21st May 2015 - 07:00 AM.
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Chatulio
21st May 2015 - 07:00 AM
Hello Adler,

I'd suspect that a refit to MG36 standard would be the first step, but von der Leyen has stated that, after a quick fix, she wants a proper replacement over the next years and for that the HK 416 would be the best candidate.


With best regards,

Chatulio
Sounds plausible after all her dodgy talk about possible "repairs" and formulations like "the G36 in its current configuration has no future".

Well, not really a "documentation" in a scientific sense, but interesting:

Heckler & Koch HK416





and something from H&K themselves:

"The people are sleeping better if they don't know how laws and sausages are made"
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Eine Frage an die Deutschen members. Haben Sie Familienmitglieder die im Zweite Weltkrieg gekämpft haben (Wo noch am Leben sind)?

Ich habe mich interessiert in der Zweite Weltkrieg seit 10 Jahren. Ich möchte ein Waffen-SS veteran fragen stellen :p.

(Sorry for my bad German. I had German for some years, but haven't used it in a while. I used to speak it very good and I want to start practising again :p ).

biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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Hello WorldWar2boy,

both family members that served in WW II passed on in the past 11 years and neither were members of the NSDAP or the SS.

As the allies had given out standing orders to liquidate any SS member falling into their hands (identifyable by their tattoos), there are likely no survivors left over by this point and if there are, they take a great care to be be left unfound, as Germany, the victor powers and Israel may want to charge them for warcrimes (seeing the abhorrent crimes commited by the SS in occupied territories).


With best regards,

Chatulio
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