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Kurdish Sufism
Topic Started: 6th August 2013 - 01:04 AM (6,650 Views)
the SUN child
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I've got a question about Sufism.

Is Kurdish Sufism closer to Shia -, Sunni Islam or closer to Kurdish Ezidism or even Zoroastrianism?
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Edited by the SUN child, 6th August 2013 - 01:11 AM.
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jjmuneer
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Sufism and Alevism are Shia just sub-branches. Although their dancing seems to have other influences.
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the SUN child
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jjmuneer
6th August 2013 - 01:38 AM
Sufism and Alevism are Shia just sub-branches. Although their dancing seems to have other influences.
Are you sure? Because Barelvi Sufi in Pakistan and North India are Sunni Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barelvi
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the SUN child
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Quote:
 
Zoroastrianism and Sufism

[Zoroastrianism and Sufism have the same origin, Sufism definitely predates Islam in Iran. And the dominant Pantheism of Sufism definitely has its roots in Zoroastrianism and obviously not in Abrahamic dualism.
But there are thousands of different Sufi schools - Sufism is basically ANY Islamic mysticism - so I would not say that Sufism is disguised Zoroastrianism within Islam as some people have wrongly claimed.
And even if one and many can sometimes be the same thing, I believe the basiv tenent of Zoroastrianism is that there are an infinite number of paths available rather than just one path. The passive "submission" inherent to Sufism is Islamic and not Zoroastrian. Zoroastrians (and Pagans) do NOT have a submissional relationship to Ahura Mazda the way Islam is always, also within Sufism, a submission to Allah (literally the practice of "Islam").


http://alexanderbard.blogspot.nl/2009/01/zoroastrianism-and-sufism.html


or this

Quote:
 
Zoroastrianism, The Sufi Religion, The World’s Best Religion


Well, first, the bar is not set very high regarding comparative religion. Christianity uses Human Sacrifice to justify free sin. Islam uses the Sword to spread a Religion that worships a big black rock in Saudi Arabia. Jews think its all about a War God giving them rights to Holy Land Real Estate. Hinduism is institutionalized racism (if you bother to look the Brahmins are White Aryans while the other people in India are colored – the word ‘Caste’ means color). Buddhism, as it originated was purely just Stoicism, a system that asked people to turn their backs on the world and everyone in it for the sake of their precious individual Peace of Mind. So, really, to be the Best of the World Religions, simply not horribly screwing up on the basics might be quite enough to take away first prize.

I found a good set of Sites on Zoroastrianism. http://www.zoroastrianism.cc/universal_religion.html

Zoroastrianism was a very influential force for advancing the idea of Morality, awareness of Good and Evil, and in advocating for Goodness. If one looks at Pre-Zoroastrian Mythologies, well, there simply was almost no conception at all of Goodness and Evil. The Gods and Man were largely amoral. In the Barbarian Epic Poems we find Loyalty and Duty extolled as Virtues, but this was so Warrior Chieftains could consolidate their Power by systematically subjugating their underlings with the propaganda of Noble Loyalty and Duty. But in all other terms both Man and God were most basely selfish, barbaric, even evil. For the most part Loyalty and Duty were put into the service of widespread rape and pillage. Only with the rise of Zoroastrianism, during one of the World’s most cosmopolitan of times, when ideas traveled afar, did there arise a Consciousness of Moral Responsibility, enabling the development of Higher Civilization.

The problem with Zoroastrianism is we can hardly find its detailed History. You see, Zoroastrianism grew up in Ancient Persia, and Persia has not been very lucky in History. In the 12th Century the Mongols genocided the entire region, and then just two centuries later Timerlane did much the same thing. Well, what happens when one burns down every metropolitan area in order to kill everybody is that libraries are lost. And when everyone is killed, even the well known facts carried by oral traditions are lost. Today there are not that many actual Zoroastrians left… there are some small communities in India. And Scholars are left not even knowing the exact Millennium when Zoroastrianism, that is, it’s Founder Zarathushtra appeared on the scene.

Mostly Zoroastrianism lives on in its influences. Any moral element in Judaism sources from Zoroastrianism. Scholars have found that the Sermon of the Mount came from materials preached by Zoroastrian Preachers and Monks – Sufis. The Sufi Religious Orders are survivals from Zoroastrianism. Now, most Sufis will say they are Muslim, but this is only because they mostly live in Islamic Regions and we all know how that goes. You say you are Muslim or you die. But looking at the Muslim History of persecuting the Sufi Religious Orders we can see that while the Sufis might say they are Muslim, the Muslims themselves rather deny it from their own side of the equation. Besides, History tells us of Sufi Religious Orders predating Mohamed. If they were around before Islam, then they’re not Islamic, are they? Or not entirely anyway.

These Zoroastrian Sufis were and are a wonderful influence on Cultures with whom they mingle. Muslim Intolerance propelled quite a drift of Sufis out of their former homelands and across the boundaries of both Christianity into Europe and Hinduism and Buddhism in India. In Catholic Europe they well agreed with the virtual Goddess Worship of the Virgin Mary, and contributed to the traditions of Troubadourism and Chivalry. For instance, one of the most mystical and magical of Catholic Saints, Bernard, had a fascination with the “Songs of Solomon”, ostensibly erotic, but part and parcel of the Sufi tendency to use sexual tension as a metaphor for Spiritual Aspiration. It may be an odd coincidence of History, but Catholicism in Europe survived only in the regions that had been penetrated by the Sufis. In Germany and England, where the Sufis had not yet reached, Barbarism had complete reign and Protestantism took over bringing a new Dark Age upon the World (with America’s Religious Right chanting that Greed is Good while voting for War after War after War).

As mentioned earlier, Zoroastrianism affected Early Christianity even in the Teachings of Christ and so any moral influence Christianity may have had in its first several centuries, and then later with Catholic Civilization, might be attributed to Zoroastrianism, as it certainly doesn’t come from the purely Hebrew Traditions of killing goats for Sin and slaughtering Canaanites for Land. Oh, and it might be mentioned, that Scholars have puzzled on the fact that they can find no documented sign of Moses in Judaism before the Babylonian Captivity, and that some cynics actually believe that the Jews taken to Babylon were fascinated by and so simply latched onto the Moses Legends there and brought them home to Judah later after their Persian Liberation (it would explain the scriptural references to finding “Lost” scrolls after the return from Babylon… it may have been the first time that these ‘People of David and Solomon’ had ever heard of Moses). If this is the case, then the Moses Legend may be sourced from some favorite Sufi Tales, supported by the modern scholarship that shows that the very name “Moses” and that certain place names from the Biblical Moses legends come not from the Holy Land region, but from the Kashmir, in Northern India, an old Sufi stomping ground.

The moral influence of Zoroastrianism on Buddhism was important. You see, original Buddhism, well, there is nothing religious about it, either spiritually or morally. It was merely Stoicism of the “Nero fiddled while Rome burned” variety – Buddha had not even been original, but was simply repeating Stoic Philosophy as it had been brought to Northern India by the Alexandrian Conquests. And at least Rome had fiddles. The Stoicism of Buddha was so much dryer. But it was popular with Buddha’s Merchant Class Sponsors – those City Slickers rebelling against the Brahmin Sovereignty in the Countryside, and using Stoic Buddhism as their excuse to thumb their noses at Religion and any Moral Responsibility or Civic Duty. Buddhism, like Protestantism, was simply a Tax Dodge against established Religious Institutions that were trying to maintain Civil Authority. But the influx of Sufi and Christian Moral influence uplifted Buddhism until there was a shift to a Higher Moral Mahayana Buddhism. It is odd today, but there are people about who actually insist that Original Buddhism, for the sake of its originality, is actually BETTER than Moral Buddhism. It must actually hurt these people’s brains to think, or one would have to wonder how they could possibly believe such a stupid thing.

In India proper, the Home of Hinduism, Sufi Zoroastrianism added to the Religious and Philosophical dialogue. Unlike in the Christian and Islamic Zones of Civilization, India was Philosophically wide open. The effective paradox of Chaste Separation and Segregation was that the Philosopher Caste was left to itself to discuss whatever it liked and nobody could possibly think it their responsibility to interfere. And the Sufis, like other outsiders who would visit India, found themselves fortunately outside of the Chaste System, allowing them also a wide degree of tolerance, but also exempting them from “Untouchable” status, being in a sort of a Chaste ‘No Man’s Land’, so that they could mingle with the Philosopher Brahmins at every time but meal time. Ideas were shared.

It was in India that something of a competition grew up between the Sufi Mystics, the Fakirs as they were called, and the native Hindu Mystics with their various Meditation Cults and Yoga Schools. This is important in the sense that no True Religion can base all of its credentials entirely on just its intellectual assertions, however morally informed. There has to be some Spirituality, that is, an almost visceral appeal to fundamental human psychology down to the deepest conscious and subconscious levels. And there has to be some Supernaturalism. Let’s face it, one cannot talk about God without a Miracle being in the mix somewhere. The Catholic Religious Orders, where they overlapped Zoroastrian influence, documented Miracles. And the Hindu Yogas and Mediation Cults also documented miracles, likewise in territories that overlapped Zoroastrian influence.

So the conclusion is unmistakable, that while Zoroastrianism as a religious entity in itself has almost disappeared into complete obscurity, its influences may still be the most important factor in all of the Higher Moral Religions and Philosophies that continue to exist today.


http://theinfinityprogram.com/index.php?threads/zoroastrianism-the-sufi-religion-the-world%E2%80%99s-best-religion.2420/
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Worldwar2boy
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Sufism is a form of mysticism and some sufi's claim that their religion is older then Islam itself.
biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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the SUN child
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I do agree, Sufism is the best and better than Ezidism (/ Yezidism) . But according to me Kurdish Sufism is even closer to Ezidism than to Zoroastrianism or Islam.


EDIT: actually I see even some links between Sufism and ancient Magi of the Mitanni/Medes!
Edited by the SUN child, 6th August 2013 - 01:51 AM.
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jjmuneer
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the SUN child
6th August 2013 - 01:42 AM
jjmuneer
6th August 2013 - 01:38 AM
Sufism and Alevism are Shia just sub-branches. Although their dancing seems to have other influences.
Are you sure? Because Barelvi Sufi in Pakistan and North India are Sunni Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barelvi
Hmm I'm not sure, I've always viewed Sufism as more Shia leaning than Sunni, considering it's practices, but I guess Sufis themselves view themselves as independant. Although I've never actually met a Kurdish Sufi in real-life, I only know Alevis from Dersim.
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jjmuneer
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the SUN child
6th August 2013 - 01:49 AM
I do agree, Sufism is the best and better than Ezidism (/ Yezidism) . But according to me Kurdish Sufism is even closer to Ezidism than to Zoroastrianism or Islam.


EDIT: actually I see even some links between Sufism and ancient Magi of the Mitanni/Medes!
But it doesn't explain how Sufism came into being in different countries, all the way to Africa and South Asia. Although I don't deny influences of connections.
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Qandil
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Which branch within Islam cuts themselves with knifes/swords?
"Kurdino! Bibin yek; eger hûn nebin yek, hûn ê herin yek bi yek." - Cigerxwîn.
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the SUN child
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Sufi saints in the Yezidi tradition
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Edited by the SUN child, 6th August 2013 - 01:55 AM.
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the SUN child
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Some other sources in Kurdish - Divan of Melaê Cezîrî and a collection of fairy tales and legendary stories prepared by the family of Celîl - profile the degree of interrelation between Yezidi religion, Sufism and Zoroastrian survivals.

http://www.pen-kurd.org/englizi/zorab/zorab-SheikhAdi-Sufizm.html
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jjmuneer
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Dewran
6th August 2013 - 01:54 AM
Which branch within Islam cuts themselves with knifes/swords?
We do not "cut ourselves", but Shias are stereotyped as such. And by the way that isn't in Shia belief, nor is it mandatory to cut themselves. By "cut yourself" I think you are referring to 'Kame' or 'Cama', it is more custom that Arabs developed, although some Persian shias also do that.
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jjmuneer
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the SUN child
6th August 2013 - 01:55 AM
Sufi saints in the Yezidi tradition
Interesting heval, there are Yarsanis in Kirmanshan with similar.
Look here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdanism
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the SUN child
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I'm sure Shex Adi introduced Sufims in Ezidism. He UPDATED thousand of years old Kurdish (/Sumerian) Ezidism with Sufism, 1000 years ago!


Muslim Kurds that don't want to follow Islam teaching after the Jihad and Fatwa against Kurds and Kurdistan, but still believe in GOD should convert to Kurdish Sufism or Ezidism, but I would choose for Kurdish Sufism...
Edited by the SUN child, 6th August 2013 - 02:06 AM.
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jjmuneer
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the SUN child
6th August 2013 - 02:03 AM
I'm sure Shex Adi introduced Sufims in Ezidism. He UPDATED thousand of years old Kurdish (/Sumerian) Ezidism with Sufism, 1000 years ago!


Muslim Kurds that don't want to follow Islam teaching after the Jihad and Fatwa against Kurds and Kurdistan, but still believe in GOD should convert to Kurdish Sufism or Ezidism, but I would choose for Kurdish Sufism...
I think Kurds should choose inidivually out of their own free-will whether they wish to convert or not. Mithriasm pre-dates both of those, but it would be hard to do such revival. ;)
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Qandil
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jjmuneer
6th August 2013 - 01:57 AM
Dewran
6th August 2013 - 01:54 AM
Which branch within Islam cuts themselves with knifes/swords?
We do not "cut ourselves", but Shias are stereotyped as such. And by the way that isn't in Shia belief, nor is it mandatory to cut themselves. By "cut yourself" I think you are referring to 'Kame' or 'Cama', it is more custom that Arabs developed, although some Persian shias also do that.
No no, I am not talking about Shias. I didn't even think that Shias were cutting themselves, but only slapping on their backs, as to show how Imam Ali suffered.

I am talking about something completely different. A video I saw was Muslims cutting themselves, and one of them literally ripped their back open...
"Kurdino! Bibin yek; eger hûn nebin yek, hûn ê herin yek bi yek." - Cigerxwîn.
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the SUN child
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jjmuneer
6th August 2013 - 02:10 AM
Mithriasm pre-dates both of those, but it would be hard to do such revival. ;)
I'm not sure, heval, since Sumerians existed before and their Sun-worshiping predates Mithraism ... ;)
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jjmuneer
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Dewran
6th August 2013 - 02:16 AM
jjmuneer
6th August 2013 - 01:57 AM

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
No no, I am not talking about Shias. I didn't even think that Shias were cutting themselves, but only slapping on their backs, as to show how Imam Ali suffered.

I am talking about something completely different. A video I saw was Muslims cutting themselves, and one of them literally ripped their back open...
Then I have no clue, it could be wierd Jihadists or Wahhabists. I mean alot of them have very wierd and fanatical beliefs.
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jjmuneer
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the SUN child
6th August 2013 - 02:19 AM
jjmuneer
6th August 2013 - 02:10 AM
Mithriasm pre-dates both of those, but it would be hard to do such revival. ;)
I'm not sure, heval, since Sumerians existed before and their Sun-worshiping predates Mithraism ... ;)
Then I'm not sure, Zoraester was Median, but you have to remember Kurds only converted to Zorastrianism during the Sassanid period, Kurds primarily practiced some Dualistic spritualistic Indo-European typed religons. However the Medes were in control of the Magi preisthood in modern day Tehran and Hamadan.
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the SUN child
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jjmuneer
6th August 2013 - 02:54 AM
However the Medes were in control of the Magi preisthood in modern day Tehran and Hamadan.
As far as I know three Biblical Wise Men or Three Kings / Biblical Median Magi that found Jesus by "following" a star came from Amadiya, South Kurdistan and not Eastern Kurdistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadiya


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhZgM6xRcU
Edited by the SUN child, 6th August 2013 - 03:11 AM.
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MedianKurd
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sorry but wtf is this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhw2OjDIAnI


not scary version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQc0bhZYjd0 <<HAHAHAHA
Edited by MedianKurd, 6th August 2013 - 05:43 AM.
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the SUN child
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LOL haha

I don't think it's KURDISH type of Sufism, this is from Pakistan. Kurdish Sufism is different. Also those men are Sunni and not Shia/Alevi.

Alevi type of Sufism is the most beautiful phylosophy humans ever achieved!
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Worldwar2boy
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Kurdish Yarsan demo in Sweden, they are proud Kurds :).
There are between 1.5 and 2 million Yarsan Kurds.

Many people think there are only Kurdish muslims and Christians, and that's why some ignorant people estimate the number of Kurdish muslims at around 90%. They completely forget about other KURDISH RELIGIONS, like Yezidis, Yarsans, Jews, etc. We Kurds have probably the most religiously diverse nation in the world. Sufi's are, many times, regarded as muslims, while many sufi's themselves don't categorize themselves as such (and many other muslims don't want to categorize them as such). And than there are of course Kurdish Atheists & agnosts, Yazdanism, Ishikism (branch of Yazdanism), Zoroastrianism and Mandeans.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdh6NcNhTX0
Edited by Worldwar2boy, 6th August 2013 - 06:11 PM.
biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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jjmuneer
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Worldwar2boy
6th August 2013 - 06:10 PM
Kurdish Yarsan demo in Sweden, they are proud Kurds :).
There are between 1.5 and 2 million Yarsan Kurds.

Many people think there are only Kurdish muslims and Christians, and that's why some ignorant people estimate the number of Kurdish muslims at around 90%. They completely forget about other KURDISH RELIGIONS, like Yezidis, Yarsans, Jews, etc. We Kurds have probably the most religiously diverse nation in the world. Sufi's are, many times, regarded as muslims, while many sufi's themselves don't categorize themselves as such (and many other muslims don't want to categorize them as such). And than there are of course Kurdish Atheists & agnosts, Yazdanism, Ishikism (branch of Yazdanism), Zoroastrianism and Mandeans.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdh6NcNhTX0
These guys are all either Kirmanshanis or Hamadani Laks, they could also be fayli Yarsanis. Do you know what tribe they are from?
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the SUN child
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Sufi Mystic Orders


Three of the stormiest and most controversial early movements within Sufism were led by Husayn ibn Mansur Haflaj (crucified AD 922),'Ain al-QudAt Hamaddni (crucified AD 1131), and Shahâb al-Din Suhrawardi (crucified AD 1191). They all preached ideas antithetical to the basic tenets of established Islam, and in astonishing conformity with the Cult of Angels. Hallâj, for example, claimed himself to be an avatar of the divinity, by which he proclaimed in his famous formula, an4'1 haqq, Arabic for "I am the Haq [the Spirit]," out of the belief in the unity of creation, and that all creatures are ultimately the manifestations of the same original Universal Spirit. He thus also declared Lucifer to have been redeemed and elevated to the highest universal station, as in Yezidism. He was subjected to exquisite tortures before being crucified in Baghdad. At present there is a shrine dedicated to Hallâj in the sacred Yezidi religious center and shrine complex at Lâlish, next to the tomb of Shaykh Adi.

...

The oldest Sunni Sufi order still followed by the Kurds is the Qâdiri, named after its founder, Abdul-Qâdir Cilâni (also Gaylâni, Kaylâni, or Khaylani) (AD 1077-1166). Many important Kurdish religious families are presently, or are known in the past to have been, members of this order. The Qâdiri order has been in steady retreat since the start of the 19th century, under pressure from another Sufi order, the Naqshbandis.

The Tâlabâni tribe, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan party, its leadership, and most people in the southern sectors of South Kurdistan and in eastern Kurdistan (in Iran) are Qâdiris. The order's headquarters are in the sacred ancient town of Barzanja near Sulaymania. Shaykh Mahmud, leader of many Kurdish uprisings against the British Mandate of i-rack, was also the leader of the Qâdiri Sufi house of Barzanji.

...

Today, the people in northern, and to some extent western, Kurdistan follow the Naqshbandi order, while central and eastern Kurdistan are still Qâdiri. The Barzani tribe is led by Naqshbandi Sufi masters, who exercise temporal, as much as spiritual, influence in their area. Until late in the last century, however, the Barzftnis and all other tribes and clans in these areas of Kurdistan were followers of the Qâdiri order. This and many other conversions to the Naqshbandi order were the direct result of the energy and fervor of one Mawlanâ Khâlid.

...


Sufi lodges (khtinaqds) pepper Kurdistan, and are much moire common in fact than mosques or any other places of religious ritual (except, perhaps, for the sacred trees and ponds dedicated to Khidir) (see Popular Culture).

Non-Muslim Kurds also follow Sufi orders of their own, or any one of the Cult orders, which are at least nominally known to be Shi'ite Sufi orders (as, for example, are the Nurbakhshi and Ni'matulâhi orders). The Alevis in western and northern Kurdistan are predominantly of the Bektâshi/Baktâshi order. The order traditionally claimed to be a Sunni Muslim order, since none else was permitted under the Ottomans. But the followers of this order remained almost exclusively Alevi, with adherents among Kurds and non-Kurds all the way to Bulgaria, Albania, and Bosnia. The influence of this order on the life of the Alevi Kurds is profound. One of the most important festivals observed by the Alevi Kurds is that of H5ji Bektâsh, the founder of the Bektâshi Sufi order and one of the most important of the primary avatars of the Spirit in Alevism. While long suppressed, the Turkish government, within whose domain the bulk of the Bekthshis live, now allows, and sometimes officially sponsors, these Alevi feasts. A reason may be the influence of Turkish President Ozal. Even though Ozal's own family is of Naqshbandi background, they are natives of the largely Kurdish city of MalAtya, where both Naqshbandi and Bektâshi orders are present.

The Bektâshis are more commonly, and indirectly, known in the West through their "Whirling Dervishes," whose white costumes and conical white hats are familiar to most Westerners interested in the Asian religions and practices. The most important center of the Bektâshis is the site of the shrine of the great Sufi master and poet, Mevlana (more accurately, Mawlând Jâlâl al-Din Balkhi, also known as AI-Rumi), in the city of Konya, near the southern fringes of the central Anatolian Kurdish enclave.

...

A rather peculiar order, the Rafd'is, should also be mentioned, as they are in a sense a mystic order. Their strong belief in the ability of the soul to transcend the physical body at the will of any well-trained mind provides for ceremonies that include walking barefoot on hot coal, swallowing swords, and driving sharp objects through one's own flesh, and in all cases, seemingly coming out unharmed.



read more: http://www.kurdistanica.com/?q=book/export/html/99
Edited by the SUN child, 6th August 2013 - 10:01 PM.
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